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05/11/2004: 1 Cent1 Cent Two Cents

Iraqi Prisoner "Abuse"

I have seen worse cases of "abuse" at American colleges where it is labeled hazing. Having prisoners make a naked dog pile while a female soldier laughs at their genitals is, I am sure, very traumatic. Guess what people, that is why they are doing it. It is part of their job.

History has shown that the intelligence gathering apparatus is one of the biggest contributors to military victory. From ancient wars of 2000 years ago to World War II, intelligence collection has swayed the balance of wars. Ask Admiral Yamamoto what Allied intelligence gathering efforts did for him.

Being the "upstanding" nation that we are, we hold to the Geneva Convention; unlike many of this countries adversaries. Hence, we do not get to stick bamboo splints under fingernails, hook up car batteries to genitals, or any of hundreds of other more graphic torture techniques. What option does that leave us for extracting information from prisoners? Information that could save lives and end the conflict that much sooner.

Should we treat them then like prison inmates here in the states? Give them food, shelter, clothing and a flat screen TV. Maybe we could have them make some license plates. Do you think that that would encourage a prisoner to give up some information to his captors? How about we ask them real nice?

You can use whatever doublespeak you desire for what is going on in the Middle East. The truth is it is a war, and during wars distasteful, horrible things happen. That is why there is a military. They do the dirty work so that we can continue to exploit third world countries, drive gas-guzzling SUVs, and sip our mocha lattes.

Some would argue that we do not know all of these prisoners are guilty. "Innocent until proven guilty" they might say. You know, we are having a hard enough time trying to hold onto that "right" here at home. You can forget about it in a theatre of war.

Their treatment is horrible, but it is better treatment then American POWs can expect at the hands of it's adversaries. Psychological torture of these prisoners is repugnant, but how does that compare to the gruesome scene in Fallujah, or the more recent beheading of a captive American. I find it odd that American outrage over the scene in Fallujah was less then in the case of this media circus.

That is not to say torture is right. There has to be a better way. But it has been going on for eons, and will likely continue for many years to come. The fact is that this whole affair is going to hamper the military's information gathering efforts, potentially prolonging the war and needlessly putting more lives at risk.

This thing is going to get worse before it gets better, so what we really need right now is for the media to sit down, stop sticking its nose where it does not belong, and shut the f*ck up.


Wednesday the 12th of May, RW noted:


Humiliation – Yes
Torture – No

The media harped on the bodies of dead Americans being dragged through the streets for a day or two, but this prisoner crap has been played out for weeks.

Give these soldiers a break! And lets not forget that most of these Iraqis believe the only good American is a dead one.

RW


Wednesday the 12th of May, Rev. Josiah A. Perkins noted:


All this "Well, sure, what went on in Abu Graib was bad, but our torture chambers aren't as bad as Saddam's torture chambers" misses the point entirely. The concept of "giving our boys a break" also misses the point entirely.

First off, we don't know the extent of what went on. We've just seen some pictures, a few from the many. What we do know is that there's a shitload of allegations of rape and murder. We also know that the Pentagon is scared shitless at thought of releasing all the photos and videos. Putting those two together makes you wonder what's depicted in those photos and videos. Rape and murder certainly sound like torture to me.
The purpose of the war in Iraq is not to kill X number of insurgents, or anything like that. We tried that shit in Vietnam. We can only win in Iraq by winning over the hearts and minds of the Iraqis. That's the only way we'll end the insurgency. That's the only way to create a vaguely stable Iraq. That's the only way to not breed countless more terrorists.
Sure, maybe the methods of interrogation gleaned us a small amount of intelligence (although, by most accounts, upwards of 60% of all detainees were picked up in random sweeps, and are unconnected with the insurgency), and maybe that intelligence prevented a couple of suicide bombers in Baghdad.
In the process though, the torture of Iraqi detainees will produce hundreds more suicide bombers and hostage takers... I don't like that kind of math.


Wednesday the 12th of May, prof_booty noted:


What's this? Rational dialogue on the Athenaeum?


Wednesday the 12th of May, santo26 noted:


I think that the problem for the Iraqis and Muslims over all this torture and abuse is not that it was committed by the US against what I assume to be mostly (but of course not limited to) former Iraqi Army men, Baathists and so on who no doubt were not very nice when Saddam was running the show, but that the torture and abuse was committed by women soldiers.

What I think this whole slow- motion war we have been conducting in Iraq for 14 years now is going to come down to is the rights of women. The Brigadier- General in charge of the prison was a woman. The big star of these sick photos is a woman. You see, we're not really batting an eye about these facts because we Americans are, to some extent, color and gender blind- or at least more so than our Iraqi pals. Would the Iraqis be more or less upset if the torture was man- on- man action with a rubber hose? Probably less.

At the outset of the Civil War, it was about states' rights. Then, later on, it became about freeing the slaves. If things get super- hectic with the Muslims, are we going to cloak all- out war in the guise of freeing their women?

Maybe we should draft only women from now on as the Iraqis seem to be completely powerless in the face of female soldiers.

And by the way, isn't it kinda crunked- up to turn on the news and see a picture of man with ladies underwear on his head in the floating box next to the news anchor? Hmmm...being vicariously titillated by these torture pics, Michael Jackson's pedophelic urges, Kobe Bryant's rape trial...we have the circuses, where's the bread- I mean, actual goddam NEWS?!?

*long winding rant ends*


Wednesday the 12th of May, Max Power noted:


The paper detailed the army's four-and-a-half-year investigation, starting in 1971, of a seven-month string of atrocities by an elite, volunteer, 45-man Tiger Force unit of the U.S. Army's 101st Airborne Division that included the alleged torture of prisoners, rapes of civilian women, mutilations of bodies, and the killing of anywhere from nine to well over 100 unarmed civilians. The army's inquiry concluded that 18 U.S. soldiers committed crimes including murder and assault. However, not one of the soldiers, even those still on active duty at the time of the investigation, was ever court-martialed. Moreover, as the paper noted, six soldiers were allowed to resign from military service during the criminal investigations specifically to avoid prosecution. The secretary of defense at the time that decision was made, in the mid '70s, was Donald Rumsfeld.


Wednesday the 12th of May, PFC Lynndie England noted:


When interviewed by CBS News on 5/12/04, PFC Lynndie England said:

"Well, I mean, they [the photos] were for psy-op reasons," she said "And the reasons worked. I mean, so to us, we were doing our job, which meant we were doing what we were told, and the outcome was what they wanted. They'd come back and they'd look at the pictures, and they'd state, 'Oh, that's a good tactic, keep it up. That's working. This is working. Keep doing it. It's getting what we need.'"